Articles Referenced in
the FAQ of the Rings
Revised 21 Dec 2013
Compilation Copyright © 2013–2017 by Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems
Revised 21 Dec 2013
Compilation Copyright © 2013–2017 by Stan Brown, Oak Road Systems
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien From: AC <maureen-t...@alberni.net> Subject: Re: Why did the Three stop working? References: <_hywa.6056$Jf5.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <_rDwa.6130$XO1.firstname.lastname@example.org> Organization: The Tao of Cow Message-ID: <email@example.com> Date: Thu, 15 May 2003 04:33:09 GMT Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:106015 On Thu, 15 May 2003 03:03:22 GMT, TradeSurplus <trades...@hotmail.com> wrote: > AC wrote , >>TradeSurplus <trades...@hotmail.com> wrote: >>> Does Tolkien ever explain why the Three stoped working after the One > was >>> destroyed? >> >>The Three, like the Seven and the Nine, were made with Sauron's > knowledge. >>Though they were never touched by Sauron, and he had no part in their >>making, they, like the other Rings of Power, were bound to the One. > That is >>why, when Sauron revealed himself, the Eldar took off their Rings and > hid >>them. > > That explains how Sauron was able to control them. It doesn't explain > why they worked before the One was forged but not after its destruction. Tolkien doesn't go into a discussion of mechanics, so other than the vague understanding that Sauron's extensive knowledge was used in *all* the Rings of Power, and his plans were to dominate the wielders of those Rings, so we have to assume that the flaw or weakness in the Three was there even before the One was fashioned. It's likely a matter of pre-design, but all of this is guesswork. At the end of the day, we know that the Elves hoped the Three would be freed, but in the end, the destruction of the One brought to an end the power of the Three. But this is my assumption as to what happened. 1. Sauron, in the guise of Annatar, gets in with Celebrimbor, and comes up with a plot to lure the Eldar into forging Rings which he then would dominate with a Ring of surpassing power. This is all dreamed up before the forging of the Rings of Power even begins. 2. The Seven and the Nine are forged with Sauron's knowledge *and* aid. I'm pretty sure Sauron did not expect any more Rings of Power to be forged. 3. Celebrimbor and the Gwaith-i-Mirdain forge the Three, without Sauron's aid, but with his knowledge, thus building into them (unwittingly) the same back door that the Seven and the Nine have. 4. Sauron forges the Ruling Ring, and all the Rings of Power, whether made with Sauron's aid or not, are made subject to it because of the back door that was put into them via Sauron's knowledge. Part of this back door is the binding of the power of all the Rings of Power to the Ruling Ring, which may have been necessary for Sauron to dominate their wielders. This is a pretty safe assumption because of ... 5. The destruction of the Ruling Ring ended the power of the Three. -- A. Clausen maureen-t...@alberni.net
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From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <Xs9S6.5615$8L1.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <z3sT6.382$I4.28433@uchinews> Subject: Re: Why 9 and 7? Message-ID: <fupU6.firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2001 13:26:35 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:18971 "Steuard Jensen" <sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu> wrote in message news:z3sT6.382$I4.28433@uchinews... > (Isn't there a comment suggesting that the Nine were all kept in a > central location while the Seven were more scattered? I'll look > later...) Possibly this; "Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the Mirdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked. There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mirdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose." UT, History of Galadriel and Celeborn So far as I can recall, this is the only mention of a division into 'Seven' and 'Nine' prior to Sauron taking ownership of the Rings. There is no indication that the two sets were different, though this might be assumed from the fact that Sauron was able to find the Nine (along with lesser rings) at Eregion, while the Seven were either hidden or somewhere else. This could just indicate that the Seven were in use or held by Elves who were not at Eregion - which might also explain why the sets were given to different races. Sauron could have given the Nine to Men immediately and the Seven to Dwarves after recovering them. Still, it also is possible that the Seven were somehow different and hidden because they had some power which it would be worse for Sauron to gain control of than those imparted by the Nine.
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From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <Xns91B4CAD7C321Crsutiganacom@22.214.171.124> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <MPG.email@example.com> <tGRa8.1144$UC6.firstname.lastname@example.org> <MPG.email@example.com> Subject: Re: Nazgűl & their importance to Sauron Message-ID: <o7Ya8.6956$Nf3.firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 14 Feb 2002 23:55:00 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:60347 "Stan Brown" <bra...@mindspring.com> wrote in message news:MPG.email@example.com... > Now it is clear that without the One in his possession, Sauron could > not automatically control the thoughts and actions of Ring-bearers - > - otherwise the Three Elven-Rings would not have been used during > the Third Age. But remember that the Nine (and the Seven) were much > more Sauron's doing than the Three. While there is room for > difference of opinion, I think the balance of probability is that > Sauron's being "in rapport with" the One would be enough to let him > transfer its dominance of any new wraith to himself. While I'm not personally fond of this view myself, two bits of evidence in support of it; 1: Sauron was able to control the Nazgul absolutely even after losing the One. This is repeatedly said to be because he held their Rings, but the chronology makes it seem likely that he had to recover the Nine from them after having lost the One. So one way or the other he was still able to dominate them without the One. 2: It is implied/suggested that some of Thrain II's seeking after gold and falling into Sauron's clutches was caused by Sauron influencing him through the Ring he wore. In contrast there is of course the matter of the Three. These items do not have to be contradictory however. The Nine and the Seven were made with Sauron's assistance (rather than just with knowledge gained from him like the Three) and further corrupted after their capture. That might logically have made them more easily influenced by Sauron (even without the One). Too, the degree of influence that could be imposed would likely have been less without the One and the bearers of the Three were more able to resist attempts at domination - consider Galadriel's words about Sauron seeking to get past her defenses and see into her mind. Even without the One he seemed to retain the capability (whether through the Rings or via some other method) to make such assaults, but in the case of the bearers of the Three he no longer had sufficient power to dominate them. Thus, Sauron might have been able to confront the Nazgul directly to force them to surrender their Rings and influence Thrain through his Ring, but not overcome the wills of the bearers of the Three; unless he regained the One. What this would mean in reference to a new wraith? Well, presumably Sauron would have been able to dominate them in a direct confrontation and force them to hand over the Ring... which would then give him complete control since they had become enslaved to it. As to why this would not lead to the possibility of Nazgul armies - the solution which seems to best fit the texts would be that the power to hold a human's fate in abeyance could only be applied to one person at a time. Just as any being truly mastering the One would have caused Sauron's dissolution precisely the same as if it had been destroyed... so to would any human mastering (and thus being mastered by) one of the Nine cause its power to be taken from any previous Nazgul just as if the Ring had been destroyed / rendered powerless. > Besides, remember how terrible Sauron was. Even without using the > Ring at all, he could reduce Pippin to a gibbering idiot in a few > seconds. Are we really talking about a significant reduction there? :)
← back to Why didn’t Sauron use the same Nine Rings to make more Nazgûl?
From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <Xns91B4CAD7C321Crsutiganacom@126.96.36.199> <9vHa8.407$FVt.firstname.lastname@example.org> <3C6BDB4B.email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <3C6C91D0.email@example.com> <PKdb8.1324$Jq4.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <s7zb8.5891$BR3.firstname.lastname@example.org> <3C6EE2CF.15687D75@pp.inet.fi> <PnCb8.6137$BR3.email@example.com> <3C6EF87D.C8C99BCC@pp.inet.fi> Subject: Re: Nazgűl & their importance to Sauron Message-ID: <_nDb8.6229$BR3.firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2002 01:08:10 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:60725 "Mikael Halila" <mikael...@pp.inet.fi> wrote in message news:3C6EF87D.C8C99BCC@pp.inet.fi... > Would he have Gandalf lapse into much more archaic speech for just > a single sentence, and then return to the comprehensive English he > uses throughout the rest of the book? I don't think so, and this is > my fundamental problem wit your interpretation. I find reading the > quoted sentence the way you do totally inconsistent with the > conversation and the whole book. Oh, there are other instances of archaic usage in the texts, but as it happens I think Tolkien wrote this with the intent of the Nazgul having the Rings. I argue the reverse because examination of the drafts shows that Tolkien considered having the Nazgul bear the Rings or Sauron returning the Rings to them at various times... I believe this line is left over from one of those conceptions. However, given that I think Tolkien's final decision (stated repeatedly) was that the Nazgul not hold the Rings this single potential discrepancy is best explained with the archaic interpretation. > But he still only uses the word "held". What about "gathered to himself"? And at that, I'm going to have to argue that 'he himself now held' is more than just 'held'. Consider your argument above about phrasing in relation to THIS line... do you really think it is remotely likely that Tolkien would have written that Sauron 'held the Rings himself' if he did NOT intend to indicate that Sauron had them in his possession? > And gathering the Nine to himself can very well refer to Sauron > regaining direct control over the Nazg?l when he returned. He 'gathered the Rings to himself'... not the Nazgul. And both quotations also include the DWARVEN Rings. If Sauron was not taking these Rings into his own possession then where exactly were the Dwarven Rings? And consider also that we know that Sauron took Thrain's Dwarven Ring >directly< into his possession at Dol Guldur. As we know he 'gathered' / 'held' that one personally I think the others mentioned in conjunction with it must have been so treated as well. Finally, in the 'textual history' department, consider this; Tolkien wrote the 'Nine the Nazgul keep' line during one of the drafts of the Council of Elrond. Then much later he wrote that the Nazgul were increased in power before the Battle of the Pelennor fields because Sauron had returned their Rings to them. If Sauron was only returning the Rings at that point then Tolkien could not have intended that they were wearing them at the time of the Council. In the end even this reference to the Nazgul having the Rings was removed, setting us up for the various LotR and post-LotR statements indicating that Sauron had the Rings. > I feel more comfortable with my interpretation because I think it's > consistent with the actual text of LotR, and you're free to keep to > yours and think the same. Well, so long as we agree that it is not "all very simple". :)
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From: conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf and fireworks (Re: FAQ of the Rings -- updates and new Qs) Date: 8 Apr 2002 12:02:08 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Message-ID: <email@example.com> References: <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <aW3s8.9516$QC1.email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:66652 qx1...@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) wrote in message news:<MPG.171b512e3...@news.odyssey.net>... > Could we have some more discussion on this point, please? I'm > willing to change the FAQ entry, and I'd like to know more. What are > the relationships or fire, fire-WORKS, and the Red Ring? Well, throwing the 'textual history' argument into the mix, it is worth noting that Gandalf's connection with fireworks and 'special study of fire magics' predates any mention of him having a Ring and indeed even the existence of the Three Rings. Thus, they were not included BECAUSE of Narya, but Tolkien's statements in Letter #301 would seem to indicate that they are at least 'consistent' with his use of Narya. I would argue that the three rings very much WERE dedicated to preservation, but that they were also 'elemental' in nature. Why give something the name 'Ring of Fire' if it has nothing to do with fire? Ditto for 'Ring of Air' and 'Ring of Water' (the translations of 'Vilya' and 'Nenya'). Consider Narya's status as 'the Kindler' and its reputed powers of strengthening the wills of others (as Gandalf did with Theoden, the defenders of Minas Tirith, and quite possibly certain hobbits)... a sort of 'preservation' type effect, resisting weariness and fear. Just the sort of thing the Elves were trying to do - and tied to the 'inner fire' of individuals. We don't get the same sort of clues about the natures of the other two Rings (though there was a quite a bit about Galdriel's in the drafts - it went through several changes but was consistently elemental in nature), but I would suspect they were similar. Elemental forces (and air and water are every bit as destructive as fire in their own ways), but specifically focused on 'preservative' and 'healing' aspects. The purpose of a blow-torch is constructive in nature, but it can certainly be turned to violent uses. Ditto for the Rings. Gandalf could make fire in a blizzard to keep companions from freezing to death... or in a battle to fry some werewolves (using the same phrase for both, and just a few pages apart). > Why does Gandalf always seem to use his staff to make fire? Gandalf tends to do alot of things with his staff. At which point the question centers on the nature of the >staff< rather than the Ring. If it was a 'conduit' or 'focus' it might just be part of the WAY Gandalf does 'magic' while Narya is part of the POWER he draws upon to do so. Or vice versa. The staff being involved doesn't mean the Ring wasn't. Gandalf visibly used his staff in 'healing' Theoden, but that scene also perfectly fits the described powers of Narya. Textually, Gandalf was always associated with fire. Right back to The Hobbit. Mytho-historically he had no such connection in origin (he was not a 'fire Maia' to all appearances) and only developed those skills in Middle-Earth, after he had received Narya. Given the textual history it was natural that Tolkien would choose to allocate the Ring of Fire to Gandalf once he had decided that Gandalf would have a Ring. And I think from that connection and the statements in Letter #310 we have to accept that the Rings DID have tangible 'elemental' aspects - focused towards their primary purpose of healing and preserving, but also applicable in other ways.
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From: conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Gandalf and fireworks (Re: FAQ of the Rings -- updates and new Qs) Date: 15 Apr 2002 05:39:53 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Message-ID: <email@example.com> References: <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <aW3s8.9516$QC1.email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:67622 qx1...@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) wrote in message news:<MPG.1723c1734...@news.odyssey.net>... > I'm not altogether sure I understand your analogy here, but _if_ you > are saying > Manwë/Air/Far sight therefore Elrond/Ring of Air/Far sight > Ulmo/Water/Prophecy therefore Galadriel/Ring of Water/Prophecy Essentially, though with the caveat that this is quite speculative and just in the nature of showing that there were some possible additional correspondences; > then I would ask, what is the left side of the analogy to > Gandalf/Ring of Fire/Encouragement > Which Vala was concerned with fire, in the same way that Manwë was > with air and Ulmo with water? I can't think of one. No Vala, but one Maia approaching the power of the Valar... Arien, guardian of the Sun. Also somewhat known for bringing hope and 'encouragement'. There is also the direct connection where Gandalf says that he is a 'wielder of the flame of the Sun' in the confrontation with the Balrog. > This would seem to argue against use of the Red Ring, since both > Gandalf the Grey and Gandalf the White had it. On the other hand-- Hrrrrm? That Tolkien said Gandalf would have been unable to 'so deal with' Theoden (and Saruman) prior to becoming 'the White' argues that he did not ONLY use his staff (unless the whole reason he was 'the White' was that his staff was somehow now 'more powerful'). If he used more than the staff then he could also have used Narya. That doesn't argue that he HAD to have used Narya, but it does indicate that the show with the staff was not the full story. Adding in that Narya enhanced his abilities in general makes its use that much more likely... as does the fact that descriptions of its power match what was done in that scene. > But note "kindle hope and courage"; this is using fire as a metaphor > for certain emotions. Yet what I am arguing is that Tolkien used that particular element 'metaphorically' for those particular emotions frequently enough that it might be argued that there was an intended deeper 'connection'... either metaphysically or culturally for the Elves. To the point where a 'magical' control of 'fire' would either automatically include the ability to 'kindle hope and courage' (if metaphysical) OR the two would naturally be linked together (if cultural). > ell no, of course it doesn't. But our only evidence for what Tolkien > was _thinking_ is what he _wrote_. The logical leap from "Tolkien > might have meant X because he didn't say X was false" top "therefore > Tolkien did mean X" is an awfully large one -- too large, in fact. > Next thing you know, we have talking Rings on Mount Doom. :-) Ha ha. If there WERE such a great leap of logic involved I'd agree. However, I think that there is one reference which takes the 'leap' out of it and makes it a much smaller step. See below. > With the greatest possible respect, I submit that this is circular > reasoning. The only way to establish that "fire" was not a metaphor > is to show that the Red Ring made actual fire, _and_ that the other > two could not (otherwise fire is just a common power of the Three). > To say, "well it's called the Ring of Fire and fire is an element so > therefore it made fire" is begging the question. (I admit I'm > oversimplifying your argument, partly perhaps because I don't fully > understand it.) Again, you are missing the one reference I was basing this on. The logic was not as above, but actually; 'Tolkien gave the Three elemental names' + 'Tolkien indicated the Ring of Fire was used with actual fire' = 'The Three must have been partially elemental in nature'. The names alone are suggestive, but as you note not conclusive. > The contrary hypothesis seems to me to have the virtue of > simplicity: the Three Rings were named based on the colors of their > gems, and all of them were about preserving things unstained and > rekindling new hope. Both ideas have the virtue of simplicity. It is just as simple to conclude that the gem colors were chosen to correspond to the intended elements and that all the Rings had a purpose of preservation, but did so in different ways. > Again, if Tolkien says otherwise somewhere then of course I'll have > to accept that; but I don't think it's quite enough to argue that he > merely didn't explicitly support my hypothesis and therefore it is false. I have not argued that. I have argued that the lack of any statement by Tolkien indicating that the Three had no 'elemental properties' leaves open the possibility that they did have such properties - which I have further supported with other arguments. > If you have a quote to show that Gandalf actually used the Ring > to make fire or fireworks, I'll happily accept it; but failing > that, why bring in an extra hypothesis? You might not take it the same way, but the 'one reference' I keep citing is actually something you quoted at the top of this thread; > And Conrad produced a quote that goes the other way: > "Fireworks have no special relation to me. They appear in the books > (and would have done even if I disliked them) because they are part > of the representation of Gandalf, bearer of the Ring of Fire, the > Kindler: the most childlike aspect shown to the Hobbits being > fireworks." > Letters #301 Does this not indicate a specific connection between Gandalf's fireworks and his being the bearer of the Ring of Fire? Even if you parse the first half to refer to Gandalf alone and the Ring of Fire reference to be a random addition - the second half clearly describes fireworks as a 'childlike aspect' of 'the Kindler', which is another name for Narya. > I think "enchanted rivers" argues against the power of Galadriel's > Ring of Water, not for it. Remember that Elrond also had an > enchanted river, but his Ring was the Ring of Air. I noted this in the Elrond section, but really it argues that Elrond (and Gandalf, who did the horses and such) could ALSO affect 'water'... NOT that Galadriel could not or did not do a good deal of 'water magic'. Gandalf did 'water magic' in that one scene, but I'm again going to argue that he used fire FAR more than any other element. > For that matter, if it was Rings then the Ring of Water was _less_ > effective than the Ring of Air in controlling rivers. Elrond was > able to prevent an invasion by the Black Riders; Galadriel was not > able to prevent an incursion by mere Orcs. That would argue pretty > strongly against any special power of the Ring of Water over water. The Orcs came from the 'land-bound' side, were beyond or on the borders of the realm proper, and crossed only the tiny Nimrodel (which was still notably bold). On the other hand, major assaults from Sauron's forces at Dol Guldur were unable to break into Lorien across the river - specifically because of the power of Galadriel and her Ring (though not specifically because of the river). Of Elrond; > And of course the telepathy was not Ring-related, or at least not > necessarily. Right, neither the telepathy nor the healing nor the bit of prophecy Elrond engages in are particularly unusual for Elves even without Rings. The only really noteworthy bit of 'magic' we see him do is the river, and I'd argue that as such we don't have a 'representative sample' to work with. I had written; >> Specific statements by Tolkien that Rings did not have such powers: 0 > But this seems to me to be a false basis of reasoning. Tolkien also > did not say that the Rings did not have the power to transport their > bearers through time, yet I do not think you would argue that this > omission is any evidence at all that the Rings had such a power. > Absence of proof for is _not_ the same as proof against. Absolutely, and if it were 'absence of proof' alone it would make little difference one way or the other. However, I think that the names are suggestive (though again, certainly not definitive) and the fireworks reference the only item of semi-solid evidence in the whole debate. Everything else is 'absence of proof' and 'possibility to speculate', but that one item has the added 'weight' of 'non-canonical once off suggestion'. :) Hence my 'very little' vs 'almost none' summation. > Granted the names, but given Tolkien's rich use of metaphor I think > we cannot jump to conclusions. Was the Flame Imperishable an actual > fire? I doubt it. Was Anduril (Aragorn's sword) and actual flame? > Certainly not. Uh oh. Again, I think it entirely possible that the Flame Imperishable WAS a form of 'fire' and that Anduril WAS in some senses tied to actual flame... it gives that impression on more than one occasion. As you note, it is a matter of determining 'level of metaphor' or precise intent... Anduril was not an open flame at all times, but I do think that it could burn. > In fact you _must_ accept a certain level of metaphor in the names > of the Rings. "Ring of Water" obviously doesn't mean it was made of > water. The question then becomes, which metaphors are in use. Unless > there is clear statement from the author, I think we need to apply > normal techniques of analysis, which means choosing the simplest > hypothesis first. Yes, but opinions as to what is the simplest hypothesis are invariably founded based on other beliefs which are not shared amongst all participants. I >am< choosing the simplest hypothesis; based on my existing view of 'elemental affinities' in Middle-earth 'magic' the simplest hypothesis is that the Three Rings were given names referencing elements because they incorporated a degree of elemental control. > This summing up puzzles me a great deal. From my perspective, there > is a great deal of evidence that can be explained without special > reference to any Ring having particular "elemental" powers, Which is an 'absence of proof' issue - many things happen without mention of 'elemental powers'. This does not mean that 'elemental powers' definitely do not exist, but it can serve as a contributing argument against them. > nothing that can't, Here is the main point of disagreement. I believe that the fireworks reference contradicts the 'nothing' - it IS a reference to 'elemental powers'. And ergo I see it as 'general lack of mention BUT one specific instance where it >is< stated'. > some direct evidence _against_ that hypothesis, I'm not sure what this refers to. The 'primary purpose of preservation' issue? As I argued previously, I don't see that contradicting the possibility of 'elemental powers' at all.... they are either not part of the PRIMARY purpose, or the preservation was achieved precisely through control of those elements. > and no clear statement from the author. The letter is not a clear statement that the Three had elemental powers, but I believe it IS a clear statement that Narya was associated with Gandalf's fireworks and that this forms a reasonable basis for arguing that the Three had elemental names because they had such powers.
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From: "Conrad Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <MPG.email@example.com> Subject: Re: uopdated FAQ of the Rings Message-ID: <12V99.firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Sat, 24 Aug 2002 23:55:41 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:78213 "Stan Brown" <qx1...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message news:MPG.email@example.com... > I'm in the process of overhauling the navigation on my Web site. > Anyone who feels moved to, please look at the new navigation (on > this page and the other ones in the General section) and tell me how > the navigation seems to work for you. I haven't looked at the page in a while. Like the new layout. Some other comments; B.2: The last sentence of this passage states that you do not know of any 'definitive' statement by Tolkien on the subject. Might be better to say that the one definitive statement may have been rejected; "The dwarves it is said had seven, but nothing could make them invisible." RotS, Of Gollum and the Ring C.2: There is a slightly different version of the history of the Three wherein Gil-galad gives Vilya to Elrond fairly early on, but then holds on to Narya himself until just before the Last Alliance. However, this is contradicted by LotR itself so maybe best to stick with just the one account which is backed up by the published version. D.10: While I agree with the 'Morgoth Element' view of the Ring it may not be universally accepted. Also, personally I tend to think that this power was not present >in< the Ring per se, but rather that the Ring allowed a powerful bearer to influence the Morgoth Element in OTHER matter... outside the Ring itself. D.12: I think it might be important to draw a distinction between defeating Sauron in direct confrontation (which the letter indicates only Gandalf might have a chance of) and doing so by building up forces to beat him militarily (as it indicates Elrond or Galadriel would have pursued). It is possible that even Aragorn could have 'won' by the latter method... it was only the direct confrontation where he was specifically excluded.
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From: conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net (Conrad Dunkerson) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: ring and invisibillity Date: 9 May 2003 10:51:20 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> References: <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <Pdvua.37$V4.email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:105643 Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message news:<MPG.19258761b...@news.odyssey.net>... I had written; >> However, there are other passages which can be read to suggest >> that Sauron changed the 16 rings after he stole them from the >> Elves... which might mean that those powers were added after >> the fact. > Hmm... Could you say more? I'm trying to recall any such passages > but drawing a blank. Note that it is a "can be read to suggest" sort of situation; "Therefore the Three remained unsullied, for they were forged by Celebrimbor alone, and the hand of Sauron had never touched them; yet they also were subject to the One. ... But Sauron gathered into his hands all the remaining Rings of Power; and he dealt them out to the other peoples of Middle-earth, hoping thus to bring under his sway all those that desired secret power beyond the measure of their kind. ... And all those rings that he governed he perverted, the more easily since he had a part in their making, and they were accursed, and they betrayed in the end all those that used them." Silmarillion, Of the Rings of Power The Three were unsullied because Sauron had "never" touched them - not merely been uninvolved in their creation. The 16 that he captured were then "perverted" so that they 'betrayed all those who used them'... possibly by turning them into wraiths or the ill-luck that followed the Dwarven bearers? This implies that a 'curse' was added to the Great Rings after Sauron seized them... and the whole personal corruption bit would seem to qualify. "...Hence the making of the Rings; for the Three Rings were precisely endowed with the power of preservation, not of birth. Though unsullid, because they were not made by Sauron nor touched by him, they were nonetheless partly products of his instruction, and ultimately under the control of the One." Letters #144 Again, it is pointed out that not only did Sauron not make the Three, but that he never touched them. Implying that if he could get hold of them he could do something MORE to corrupt them. "And finally they had other powers, more directly derived from Sauron ('the Necromancer':so he is called as he casts a fleeting shadow and presage on the pages of THE HOBBIT): such as rendering invisible the material body, and making things of the invisible world visible. ... The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility. ... They hid the Three Rings, so that not even Sauron ever discovered where they were and they remained unsullied." Letters #131 Again, Sauron could have done something to 'sully' the Three if he had found them. The three did not confer invisibility and this power was 'more directly derived from Sauron'. Again allowing the possibility that these 'Sauron derived' powers were added after the fact when the other Rings were 'sullied'. That's the gist of it. Maybe a few other passages along the same lines, but basically there is evidence that Sauron capturing the Three would be bad not just because of how he could use them but because he could DO something to the Rings themselves. Whatever this is apparently WAS done to the other 16. The 'nasty effects' which should have raised elven alarm bells seem like good candidates, but it is very much an extrapolation from the texts.
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From: "Conrad B Dunkerson" <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: Re: Precedents to Tolkien in literature X-RFC2646: Format=Flowed; Original Message-ID: <7gc_b.78899$IF1.email@example.com> Date: Mon, 23 Feb 2004 00:59:47 GMT Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:20650 "loisillon" <lois...@libertysurf.fr> wrote in message news:firstname.lastname@example.org... > Niebelungenlied. Many common points, to begin with the ring. Not really. > The story of the treasure of the dwarves kept by the dragon also. That dragons kept treasure hordes was a common conception long before Wagner and Tolkien. > I do not understand why Tolkien denied Niebelungenlied as source of > inspiration. Consider 'The Hobbit'. Was there anything about Bilbo's Ring, as it was portrayed in that book, which was similar to Niebelungenlied? I'd say no. From there Tolkien began a new story and wrote everything from the start up to the council of Elrond TWICE and the Ring still had very little in common with Wagner's. He eventually decided to make the Ring much more powerful because otherwise it did not make sense that all these black riders were chasing Frodo around and Sauron doing everything he could to recover the Ring while Elrond, Gandalf and all the rest were devoting so much energy to keeping it safe. All of those things grew in the development of the story BEFORE Tolkien even conceived of the idea of 'One Ring to rule them all' and he came up with that concept specifically in response to all the fuss being made over the thing. In short, we have the textual history of the Ring's evolution in the HoME books and the simple fact is that Tolkien did not start out with a concept similar to Wagner's Ring. That the final form ended up that way is a coincidence which can be traced step by step through changes made in response to the way the story was developing.
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From: dr...@cornell.edu (Doug Elrod) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Saruman's Ring-lore (was Re: Is Modernity Evil to Tolkien?) Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 18:54:42 -0400 Organization: Cornell University Message-ID: <email@example.com> References: <lJmX8.6496$Kx3.firstname.lastname@example.org> Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:74979 alt.fan.tolkien:113196 In article <lJmX8.6496$Kx3....@newsread1.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, fourd...@earthlink.net (Steve Dufour) wrote: > Posted at theonering.net by Curious > > I am still pondering this question raised by our discussion over the > past couple of weeks.? After continuing to mull it over, I still say no, > he did not.? Here is my reasoning. > > Here are some arguments that Tolkien did equate Evil with technology and > modernity.? Note that when Tolkien, in the forward to the second edition > of LotR, denies any allegory to the 20th century, he says that if he had > written an allegory the forces of Good would have used the Ring, Saruman > would have created his own Ring, and there would be a three-way battle > between powers that all resembled Mordor. [snip] Ah, that's an interesting section. The part regarding Saruman reads "Saruman, failing to get possession of the Ring, would in the confusion and treacheries of the time have found in Mordor the missing links in his own researches into Ring-lore, and before long he would have made a Great Ring of his own with which to challenge the self-styled Ruler of Middle-Earth." I had thought that perhaps Saruman might have made such a Ring already (at least striving to be equal to the Three), but this clearly implies that his knowledge at the time of LOTR was insufficient. I stand corrected. -Doug Elrod (dr...@cornell.edu)
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From: "Troels Forchhammer" <Troels@ThisIsFake.invalid> Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien References: <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <MPG.email@example.com> <77wuc.593218$Pk3.5330@pd7tw1no> <4CDuc.firstname.lastname@example.org> <MPG.email@example.com> <QiGuc.16547$Tn6.firstname.lastname@example.org> <cxMuc.634620$Ig.630234@pd7tw2no> <MPG.email@example.com> <S6Nuc.630818$oR5.46249@pd7tw3no> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <3jNuc.634747$Ig.609652@pd7tw2no> <email@example.com> <8ZNuc.798$VP1.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <t6Wuc.600101$Pk3.93736@pd7tw1no> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <1oYuc.639903$Ig.328812@pd7tw2no> <MPG.email@example.com> <WUYuc.635998$oR5.505623@pd7tw3no> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <N24vc.638814$oR5.401799@pd7tw3no> <email@example.com> Subject: Re: Are any "evil" characters in Tolkien actually redeemed? Message-ID: <u1Avc.firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Thu, 03 Jun 2004 07:01:46 GMT Organization: Nokia Xref: g2news1.google.com alt.fan.tolkien:4069 rec.arts.books.tolkien:4155 in <40bda883$0$1583$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>, Cemetery Mink, MD <I don't like spam> enriched us with: > <snip> > Do the books say how well the ring fit? (Perhaps they do.) LotR I,2 'The Shadow of the Past' "Though he had found out that the thing needed looking after; it did not seem always of the same size or weight; it shrank or expanded in an odd way, and might suddenly slip off a finger where it had been tight." and " 'A Ring of Power looks after itself, Frodo. /It/ may slip off treacherously, but its keeper never abandons it." So I think we have to say that the fit varies ;-) -- Troels Forchhammer This isn't right. This isn't even wrong. - Wolfgang Pauli, on a paper submitted by a physicist colleague
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From: Troels Forchhammer <Troels@ThisIsFake.invalid> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Frodo and the Ring (was Re: Sam and the Ring at Cirith Ungol) Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2004 20:02:42 +0000 (UTC) Organization: Cybercity Message-ID: <Xns9569E1AB74E00T.Forch@188.8.131.52> References: <qN2dnWQeJcKtFKLcRVnemail@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <hoVemail@example.com> <Iz20d.3865$8Y4.firstname.lastname@example.org> <yFE0d.email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <4143FC83.3F45109@operamail.com> <MPG.email@example.com> <41448395.34C58DAF@operamail.com> <Gm31d.63$vZ7.firstname.lastname@example.org> <aIh1d.email@example.com> <oPq1d.134$dV3.firstname.lastname@example.org> <MPG.email@example.com> <41481E3F.407EA5E6@yahoo-dot.ca> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> Xref: g2news1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:11917 In message <news:MPG.1bb799...@news.odyssey.net> Stan Brown <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> enriched us with: > > "Odysseus" <odysseu...@yahoo-dot.ca> wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: >> >> From _UT_, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn": <snip quotation> > Thanks. I've added this to the FAQ of the Rings. > > I've also revised the nearby text about the Red Ring. Previously > the FAQ cited the ambiguity in UT about whether Gil-galad gave it > to Círdan in the middle of the Second Age or just before the end. > Now the FAQ points out that most accounts favor the earlier date. From the Rings-FAQ regarding Vilya: "(Unfinished Tales is more specific: "At that time [after Sauron's defeat in S.A. 1701] also Gil-galad gave Vilya, the Blue Ring, to Elrond, and appointed him to be his vice-regent in Eriador." [UT: GC (237)]" I think that one must either accept the whole of that quotation (that Elrond got Vilya about S.A. 1700 and Círdan got Narya about S.A. 3440) or reject both parts. All accounts point towards Gil-Galad keeping one of the two Rings almost until his death ("[...] before he died gave his ring to Elrond." implies, IMO, an unsaid 'shortly before . . .') and giving the other to either Círdan or Elron very early on (let's say no later than S.A. 1705). I would find it problematic to believe that Gil-Galad would have passed on both Narya and Vilya as early as the middle of the Second Age and keeping none of the Rings for himself. Going by the text in LotR I think the most likely is still that Gil- Galad passed Vilya to Elrond near the end of the Second Age (after the formation of the Last Alliance of Men and Elves, I would say). The problem is that the quoted passage from UT is, as far as I am aware, the only passage that is more explicit than 'before he died'. The problem is that it leaves Gil-Galad without a Ring from that point. > I've also added a short list of "handlers" of the One Ring after > the table of bearers at > http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q1-Bearers > Can anyone add anything to the list of handlers? Gandalf did 'handle' it very briefly in Bag End in I,2 'The Shadow of the Past': "[...] It felt suddenly very heavy, as if either it or Frodo himself was in some way reluctant for Gandalf to touch it. Gandalf held it up. It looked to be made of pure and solid gold. 'Can you see any markings on it?' he asked. [...] For a moment the wizard stood looking at the fire; then he stooped and removed the ring to the hearth with the tongs, and at once picked it up. Frodo gasped. It is quite cool,' said Gandalf. 'Take it!' Frodo received it on his shrinking palm: it seemed to have become thicker and heavier than ever." It's not at all obvious, IMO, but emphasizing 'handlers' you seem to try to avoid any distinction between 'keepers', 'bearers' and 'owners', but I think that Gandalf, in that case, would have to be included ;-) -- Troels Forchhammer Valid mail is <t.forch(a)email.dk> For animals, the entire universe has been neatly divided into things to (a) mate with, (b) eat, (c) run away from, and (d) rocks. - (Terry Pratchett, Equal Rites)
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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_f...@yahoo.com> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien Subject: Re: FAQ of the Rings updated Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2013 21:50:33 -0600 Organization: albasani.net Message-ID: <email@example.com> References: <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> In-Reply-To: <MPG.email@example.com> On 9/16/13 3:35 AM, Stan Brown wrote: ... > The actual content of the FAQ of the Rings hasn't been significantly > updated in a couple of years. As always, if you see mistakes, or if > you have something new to add, please post here so that we can all > discuss it. Very interesting. I have a couple of comments. "Cubic Zirconium" should be "Cubic Zirconia" (zirconium oxide). You suggest that Faramir couldn't be corrupted by Rings, but I don't see any reason to believe that. He held out for a day, but Boromir held out much longer than that and still succumbed. And we have no idea what would have happened if someone like him had been given a reused one of the Seven (a possibility that had never occurred to me) by someone who didn't appear to represent the forces of darkness and he didn't know any practical or moral reason to refuse it. And do you really want "Who could have beat Sauron...?" instead of "beaten"? -- Jerry Friedman
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From: how...@yahoo.com (Tim Howe) Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Was the One Ring sentient? (proposed FAQ entry) Date: 14 May 2002 04:30:53 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> References: <MPG.email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <3CE0451A.firstname.lastname@example.org> Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:70736 Delurking briefly ... Jay Random <jra...@bondwine.ca> wrote in message news:<3CE0451...@bondwine.ca>... > Pradera wrote: > > > > > Remembering shapes and elasticity is not a matter of being sentient... it > > seems though that Sauron was the first to invent elastic metal. > > > The Ring did not simply alter its size to fit the wearer's finger. > Sometimes it altered its size specifically so as _not_ to fit, as when > it slipped off of Isildur's finger. (I'm not sure it's stated just how > Gollum came to lose it, but I suspect it was another case of > expanding-Ring syndrome.) Tolkien quite specifically states that the > Ring `no longer had any use for Gollum'. To use things (or people) as > instruments implies goals, what the Scholastics called `final causes'; > to have goals implies sentience, if not outright intelligence. not necessarily. It certainly implies Saruon's sentience, but not necessarily the ring's. The ring could have been pre-programmed so to speak to behave in certain ways without actually making decisions of it's own. We don't think of computers as being sentient despite some behaviors which may appear as such. For example, Saruon "programmed" the ring to either slip on or off at any time it may place an enemy into peril. Or if an owner possessed it too long without concern for using it. Gollum lost the ring only after he no longer really needed to use it most of the time. Isildur was an enemy. Frodo was an enemy (with regards to slipping onto his finger in Bree). However the ring was also unable to do anything physical beyond changing size. And that could be activated by the presence of a "spirit" or a "soul" alone, hence it does not change while on the chain etc. Now, how it recognized an enemy I don't know. It might be anyone other than Saruon, or possibly it is triggered by some personality trait. Also, interestingly, I don't know that the ring did change size for Tom Bombadil. I'll have to re-read the passage but didn't he just slip it onto the tip of his finger, implying that it does not change? > You may try to shrug this off by saying that Gandalf was speaking > figuratively. But the essential `narrative protocol' of fantasy > literature, including the Northern myths & legends that so profoundly > informed Tolkien's life & work, is that _the pathetic fallacy is to be > taken as literally true_. In real life (or in a story in a `realistic' > setting), if I say my ring fell off my finger on purpose, I am > attributing an impossible quality to it. Rings don't have a sense of > purpose; they don't do things on their own. If a character in a > `realistic' novel says something of this kind, we know one of two > things: either he's telling a tall tale for humorous effect (the > Murphy's Law method of attributing malice to inanimate objects), or he's > out of his head. We know he's an unreliable narrator. In fantasy, we > _must_ assume that the narrator is reliable unless & until we are given > information to the contrary. Or it's a way of describing something as accurately as possible without delving into an excessively long explaination. Or possibly Gandalf does not know the exact nature of the ring because no one does other than Saruon, and he isn't talking. The powers of the ring were well known to all the wise, but the physical attributes mabye less so. We know that despite his long struggle, Gandalf had to travel all the way to Minas Tirith to study before he could say for sure that Frodo's even WAS the one ring. Afterall, only one being held the ring before it passed out of knowledge other than Saruon. Which raises another question, if the one ring is sentient, does that imply that the other rings of power are too? Gandalf's comment about the ring seems to apply universally in this regard so I'd say yes. > Rings _can_ be sentient in a work of > fantasy; horses can fly, the dead can walk the earth, men can be > immortal, the world can be flat & teeming with incorporeal spirits. We > have only the author's word for what constitutes `reality' inside his > story. We have Tolkien's word that the Ring made decisions on its own & > was trying to get back to its master. By the rules of the game, we have > to accept that as the literal truth within the frame of the tale. But even decisions do not imply sentience necessarily, they merely imply a sufficiently adequate set of rules or instincts. I'd argue that ants are not sentient, but they do make decisions. Plants are definately not sentient but they too make decisions in a way. To imply sentience we'd have to prove that the ring somehow understood the decisions. Frankly though, given the tone of the stories, I agree that the ring is sentient. In that it is at least dimly self-aware and makes considered decisions. But I don't know that I can prove it, devil's advocate and all that. cheers -Tim
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From: sje...@hmc.edu (Steuard Jensen) Subject: Re: The Invisibility of the Ringwraiths Date: 1998/09/08 Message-ID: <email@example.com>#1/1 References: <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> Organization: Harvey Mudd College, Claremont, CA Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Quoth s.so...@edfac.usyd.edu.au (Stephen Souter): > Actually, couldn't that "and his eyes glittered" be interpreted as > meaning they glittered by *reflected* light? ... > But then invisibility in Tolkien's word is peculiar. [Snip many examples, in which various things are visible or not.] > In which case what about some other light source the bearer happened > to be carrying, be it the magical Phial of Galadriel or a > non-magical lantern?) As far as I can tell from the books (and these examples in particular), the Ring only influences light which passes through a "skin" around its wearer, and in fact, only light which first hits the _outside edge_ of that "skin." In more detail, light running into the "skin" from the outside simply passes along without being affected by anything inside (or at least, not much; more on this later). Thus, we can see right through the wearer, as if he were not there. On the other hand, light which runs into the "skin" from the inside is not affected. Hence, light sources borne by the wearer (magical or not) are visible on the outside to precisely the extent that they would be if the Ring were not involved at all. This is really quite a good idea, when it comes right down to it. Among other things, heat can be emitted as (infrared) light, and it would be very bad for the Rings to interfere with their wearers' abilities to regulate their body temperatures. Also, it means that the Ring only needs to "worry about" a one sided, two dimensional surface, rather than a full three dimensional volume, which has got to make its job much easier. Of course, the Ring's ability to stop influences on incoming light is clearly not perfect: Bilbo's shadow in _The Hobbit_ is testament to that. However, I don't think we can tell if this "flaw" was intentional or not. Finally, (but briefly, as I need to go), I think that the Ring depends on a sentient being wearing it to be activated (so Frodo's finger alone didn't cut it). Once the Ring was activated, the wearer would have some degree of personal control over its operation. For the weak and/or untrained, that would consist only of a subconscious list of what counted as "carried" and what did not. For the strong, the invisibility could be easily limited, as Galadriel confined invisibility to her Ring alone. Steuard Jensen
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Comments welcome on my Ringlore Web page References: <MPG.email@example.com> From: sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Message-ID: <Stz68.95$O4.firstname.lastname@example.org> Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2002 16:36:02 GMT Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:58404 [Posted and emailed.] Quoth bra...@mindspring.com (Stan Brown) in article <MPG.16c3b9a9c...@news.mindspring.com>: > At long last, about seven months after I first thought of doing it, > I have my "FAQ of the Rings" on line at > http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm Very well done. I don't have time right now to give your FAQ the detailed feedback that it deserves, but I certainly plan to. :) A couple of points now while I'm thinking of them: 1. A question that I've been meaning to add to my FAQ is "Who were the intended bearers of the Great Rings?" (or something to that effect). I see quite a few questions (on the newsgroups and by email) from people who haven't realized that the Rings were originally all made for the Elves (with a possible exception for Durin's Ring), and I think such a FAQ entry would be very useful. 2. Just because I've noticed it, a comment on the invisibility answer. We have direct evidence that the Wood Elves of Mirkwood could _not_ see people in the "world of the Unseen": otherwise, they would have noticed Bilbo at once. 3. I've never been happy with either of the "logical" arguments that you present against the Nazgul wearing their Rings. Frodo was trying to avoid being stabbed on Weathertop; he wasn't writing a society column on the Nazgul's choice of wardrobe. On the other hand, Galadriel made a point of showing Frodo her Ring, or at least that has been my reading. As for the Witch-king's Ring, I don't recall any discussion of people gathering up his mace, sword, armor, or other personal items, either; a Great Ring would certainly be more significant, but it's not inconceivable that it simply wasn't mentioned (or even found, for that matter). 4. The fact that the Nine were destroyed along with the remaining Seven (whatever that means) could be additional support for Sauron holding all of them together. 5. Are you sure the One allowed Sauron to "control" the thoughts of the other Ringbearers? I haven't looked at the appropriate passage from Silm. recently, but I've thought that the One might have allowed its user to bypass the natural ability of a person to close their mind to "telepathy" (as described in the Osanwe-kenta)... meaning that Sauron could "insert" thoughts, but that with vigilance the other Ringbearers could recognize them as foreign. (I've wondered if that was how the Elves were first aware of what Sauron was trying to do to them.) On another note, there is a small amount of overlap between your FAQ and mine (and the Loos FAQs). I certainly plan to link to your FAQ eventually, but it might be good to figure out whether that sort of overlap is a problem. (There's even more overlap with some of the FAQ additions that I've had on my to do list, but I may rethink the need for those now. :) ) At any rate, very well done, and thank you! :) Steuard Jensen
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: The Nine References: <agl38r$mnrmf$2@ID-135975.news.dfncis.de> From: sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Message-ID: <T7VY8.34$Z4.email@example.com> Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 13:24:03 GMT Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:75212 [No, I'm still not really here. :) ] [Referring to Sauron's original plans for the Rings:] Quoth "Taemon" <Tae...@zonnet.nl> in article <agl38r$mnrmf$2...@ID-135975.news.dfncis.de>: > What _would_ have happened if his plans had worked out? Would he > have been ruling three elves and seven dwarfs along with his nine > humans? It seems to me that his ring-plan would have failed > miserably even if it did succeed, so to speak. Any thoughts? An important point that's been left out of many of the replies in this thread is that Sauron's _original_ plan for the Rings had absolutely nothing to do with Dwarves _or_ humans. The _original_ plan was for the Elves of Eregion (and possibly the other Noldor around Middle-earth) to use the Rings themselves, and for Sauron to take control of _them_ (the Rings were not originally intended for anyone but the Elves who made them). Having said that, the question is still an interesting one. If the Elves _hadn't_ recognized what he had done and removed their Rings, would Sauron have ended up controling all the Noldor, or would he just get nineteen remarkably powerful Elven slaves? I think, though, that the answer isn't as tricky as it may seem. Sure, at the end of the Third Age the Nazgul don't seem to have been rulers of major kingdoms, but rather Sauron's messengers and lieutenants. But not too much earlier, the Witch King of Angmar was, well, King of Angmar: he built a nation out of practically nothing, raised great armies, and all but annihilated the Dunedain of the North. It doesn't seem at all unlikely to me that he and the other Nazgul could have done similar things in the past: maybe that contributed a lot to Sauron's immense power in the East. I would be surprised, too, if they hadn't left their original nations in Sauron's hands before leaving them and truly becoming Ringwraiths. Given that, I suspect something along the following lines would have happened to the Elves (if they hadn't recognized Sauron's plot). The Ringwearers would have slowly manipulated the politics of Eregion to push out or marginalize those who were most wary of Sauron (they had already done something of the sort to Galadriel, even without being minions of Sauron). Eventually, they would start guiding the policies of the realm in ways that would help Sauron in subtle ways, and of course, Sauron would know all the Elves' secret councils. As their actions became more overtly pro-Sauron, some of the other Elves might start to speak out, but it would be gradual enough that they could be discredited bit by bit. Meanwhile, most of the population wouldn't want to disturb the status quo without _clear_ evidence that evil was at work, particularly because they would become quite dependent on the decay-slowing effects of the Rings. (Witness how quickly the populations of Rivendell and Lorien passed West when the Rings lost their power.) At some point, the situation would be made clear, and there would be rebellion... but without any of the strength and unity that the Noldor could have mustered originally. Sauron could sweep in with military force and wipe them out easily... and he would have gotten years of good service and information from them by that point. (Heck, they would probably have been able to help bring about the downfall of Numenor quite easily... I wonder if Sauron could even have eventually gotten them to attack Numenor themselves, passing it off as some sort of retribution for the Numenorians' increasing rejection of the Valar.) That's my little story, anyway. Others could clearly be constructed. :) Steuard Jensen
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Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: uopdated FAQ of the Rings References: <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> From: sbje...@midway.uchicago.edu (Steuard Jensen) Message-ID: <EP3a9.2$K4.email@example.com> Organization: The University of Chicago Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 12:11:16 GMT Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:78261 First, a comment on an earlier update: while I do not doubt that Sauron could have gotten the Nazgul to give up the Nine Rings even without the One, I don't think your argument for that point is valid. Sauron's ability to take the One Ring from a mortal would certainly be enhanced by the One's natural "allegiance" to Sauron (Tolkien makes rather a lot of this when discussing Gandalf using the Ring against Sauron). There would be no such effect when Sauron tried to reclaim one of the Nine. Quoth qx1...@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) in article <MPG.17d078f92...@news.odyssey.net>: > "What if an Elf or Wizard had put on one of the Seven or the > Nine?"(*) When you say "affected by one of the Seven or Nine just like a Man", do you mean "made invisible" (I agree), "made into a wraith" (I'm not sure that I agree), "made a slave of Sauron's will" (I agree), or what? In any case, I've put this in the section "Objects of Interest" in the Meta-FAQ. > "When did the Nazg?l arise?" And this is now in the "Earlier Events and History" section. For the record, responding to one of Conrad's points, I might replace 'Extra (new) power in the Ring, concentrated from the "Morgoth element" of Arda' with 'Additional power available to the Ring-wearer, probably from the "Morgoth element" of Arda', or something like that. It might be worth mentioning somewhere that that extra power ("R") may have varied based on the native power of the wearer; I like to think of the One Ring as a sort of "catalyst" for one's innate power. No, I don't know what the algebraic relationship of "R" to innate power "I" should be. :) "R = k*I"? "R = k*I^2"? "R = k*exp(I)"? Who knows. :) Steuard Jensen
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From: Michael Kohrs <mnk...@att.net> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: What happened to the other Rings Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> References: <BANX7.22625$wD1.email@example.com> <3PNX7.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <rZ8Z7.323720$W8.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> Date: Sat, 05 Jan 2002 03:52:53 GMT Organization: AT&T Worldnet Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:51511 On 5 Jan 2002 00:47:10 GMT, Tamim <hall...@hotmail.com> wrote: >Conrad Dunkerson <conrad.d...@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >> "OrionCA" <ori...@earthlink.net> wrote in message >> news:firstname.lastname@example.org... > >>> The Dwarves were granted long life > >> No, the Rings of power did not extend the lifespan of Dwarves. > >I would assume the same from the fact that they primarily only increased >their lust for gold but do you have a quotation? LoTR, Appendix A: "for the Dwarves had proved untameable by this means. The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it. All the more did Sauron hate the possessors and desire to dispossess them." Mnkohrz
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From: "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien,alt.fan.tolkien References: <dhXGb.65773$aT.email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <nT0Hb.6548$KH7.email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <pnpHb.email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <yjqHb.7452$SK3.email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <MPG.email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: Re: Gollum's near repentance at The Stairs of Cirith Ungol? Message-ID: <PN2Ib.1361$8R.email@example.com> Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2003 23:29:51 GMT Organization: blueyonder (post doesn't reflect views of blueyonder) Xref: archiver1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:11018 alt.fan.tolkien:15922 "Luminaria" <lanatAT@rcn.DOTcom> wrote > "Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote > > Luminaria wrote: > > >Well, Bilbo certainly started to age rapidly once he gave up the Ring to > > >Frodo. > > > > Really? Where do you get that? > > > > To me Bilbo seemed to be the same hobbit, not noticeably older when > > Frodo meets him again in Rivendell after 18 years. By contrast, he > > was much older and more feeble, almost gaga, just a year later after > > the Ring had actually been destroyed. > > He was described as noticably weaker, tended to fall asleep all the time. > Seemed much more frail. Either aging or he was having problems with the > Elven water.... Frodo meets Bilbo in Rivendell _before_ the War of the Ring (this is the 18 years later, 18 years after Bilbo left the Shire), and Bilbo appears to have been asleep: " 'Wake up indeed!' [Bilbo] said, cocking an eye at Elrond. There was a bright twinkle in it and no sign of sleepiness that Frodo could see. 'Wake up! I was not asleep, Master Elrond.' " (Many Meetings, FotR). In fact, Bilbo had been sitting and thinking about his recitation of his song of Earendil. A long song that he performed that evening. He then stayed up long into the night talking with Frodo. Hardly frail. He is described as older, but that would be the 18 years. Compare this with what Arwen says to Frodo following her wedding to Aragorn _after_ the War of the Ring, when Frodo mentions Bilbo's absence from the celebrations: " 'Do you wonder at that Ring-bearer?' said Arwen. 'For you know the power of that thing which is now destroyed; and all that was done by that power is now passing away. But your kinsman possessed this thing longer than you. He is ancient in years now, according to his kind; and he awaits you, for he will not again make any long journey save one.' " (Many Partings, RotK). And later in the chapter when they arrive at Rivendell, Bilbo "looked very old, but peaceful and sleepy" and he often fell asleep. He also loses the thread of conversations and falls asleep again several times over the next few pages. Bilbo himself says "I am getting so sleepy." Bilbo only has one line in the Grey Havens chapter, so we can't really see any further developments in his ageing, but he does seem to be nodding in his sleep on his pony. Christopher -- Reply clue: Saruman welcomes you to Spamgard
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From: nfw <firstname.lastname@example.org> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: FAQ of the Rings commentary < .sig lenght < Was: Re: Frodo's profession? References: <email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> In-Reply-To: <MPG.email@example.com> Message-ID: <UxS_f.39117$wL5.firstname.lastname@example.org> Date: Tue, 11 Apr 2006 14:27:00 -0400 Xref: g2news1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:7150 Stan Brown a écrit : > Sun, 09 Apr 2006 17:01:09 GMT from Christopher Kreuzer <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk>: >>Derek Broughton <ne...@pointerstop.ca> wrote: >>Um. Stan's .sig is _more_ than 5 lines.... > > Do you suggest that I omit those URLs, which are intended as a > convenient reference for everyone? Very convenient indeed! Thank you for such a big worthy work. As I am going through your fabulous FAQ of the Rings, learning a great deal, I would like to bring to your attention some ideas, though I'm no loremaster of Eä as you are obviously, as several other "biggies" of RABT. Just take it as the newbie's look... :-) A3. Who could see an invisible Ring-wearer? Did Gandalf see Bilbo "disappear" on the Brithday Party Speech? And how? I think it unbeleivable that Olorin would not have access to both worlds. Yet he never shows to Bilbo, as you point it very well, whether he sees him or not with the Ring on, and avoids any situation when he should see him wearing it, so that the question is eluded. I think he actually sees Bilbo wearing the ring and even feels him every time he uses it (see "E2. What were the special powers of the One Ring?"), but wants to learn more about the Ring and therefore doesn't say anything that could hinder Bilbo's free use of it. C8. Why didn’t Sauron use the same Nine Rings to make more Nazgűl? You point out that “Just as any being truly mastering the One would have caused Sauron’s dissolution precisely the same as if it had been destroyed, so too would any human mastering (and thus being mastered by) one of the Nine cause its power to be taken from any previous Nazgűl just as if the Ring had been destroyed [or] rendered powerless.” Yet, the three remaining of the Seven were "free" and could be used to enslave men, as soon as Sauron had recovered the One. C10. What if an Elf or Wizard had put on one of the Seven or the Nine? As the Istari were sent in ME centuries after the Disaster of the Gladden Fields, there is no time when the Wizards could have worn any ring under the domination of Sauron wearing the One. Had, say, Saruman taken Thrain's ring thanks to the attack on Dol Guldur, he would have been free to use it without being subject to Sauron. Eventually, he could still have been corrupted as Thrain's ring had been perverted by Sauron, but not under the domination of him. E2. What were the special powers of the One Ring? To deceive and corrupt its bearer and others "Also, in the Fellowship, Boromir fell prey to the Ring’s temptations. However, Isildur’s descendant Aragorn and Boromir’s brother Faramir seemed immune." I wouldn't say "immune", but only different in mind as far as power is concerned. Faramir was the second son, growing in the shade of his elder brother and thus developping other motives than power. Aragorn was well aware of the way Isildur failed, he had learned early to reject straightforward power claim so as to get to the full stature of a King of Gondor and Arnor when the time came, and from a sense of responsibility rather than greed for power. He worked under the rule of his own steward instead of claiming back the kingship at once. Keeping close to Gandalf and Elrond, he acquired lore that strengtened him against the Ring. E6. Who inscribed the verse in the One Ring? "The letters ran over the inside and outside of the Ring, and were not visible when the Ring was at room temperature." The Ring was cold out of the fire, which nonetheless revealed the letters. E13. Then why didn’t Gollum and Bilbo die when they lost the Ring? "It seems as though giving up the Ring, or even losing it involuntarily, doesn’t restart the aging process." Though, being deprived of it by slaughter causes sudden death, as we see with Déagol and Isildur. ;-) E21. How did the One Ring compare to Wagner’s Ring of the Nibelung? Remember the War of the Ring occurred ages ago. The tale used by Wagner might just be the faint and faulty echo of its memory. Cheers! -- nfw > Wasn't Ungoliant committed to creating a world-wide web? sounds like the sort of evil thing she'd do. she was probably the first spammer, too. -- Count Menelvagor in RABT--
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← back to What if an Elf or Wizard had put on one of the Seven or the Nine?
Message-ID: <41481E3F.407EA5E6@yahoo-dot.ca> From: Odysseus <odysseu...@yahoo-dot.ca> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Frodo and the Ring (was Re: Sam and the Ring at Cirith Ungol) References: <qN2dnWQeJcKtFKLcRVnemail@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <hoVemail@example.com> <Iz20d.3865$8Y4.firstname.lastname@example.org> <yFE0d.email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <4143FC83.3F45109@operamail.com> <MPG.email@example.com> <41448395.34C58DAF@operamail.com> <Gm31d.63$vZ7.firstname.lastname@example.org> <aIh1d.email@example.com> <oPq1d.134$dV3.firstname.lastname@example.org> <MPG.email@example.com> Date: Wed, 15 Sep 2004 10:49:51 GMT Xref: g2news1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:11784 Stan Brown wrote: > > "Christopher Kreuzer" <spam...@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote in > rec.arts.books.tolkien: > >Looking here... > > > >http://oakroadsystems.com/genl/ringfaq.htm#Q3-Bearers > > > >We see that Elrond received his Ring from Gil-galad before he died, > >which is still not quite specific enough. > > I was unable to find anything more specific, but I'd love to know it > if I missed something. > From _UT_, "History of Galadriel and Celeborn": "At this time [shortly after the war that began in S.A. 1700] the first Council was held, and it was there determined that an Elvish stronghold in the east of Eriador should be maintained at Imladris rather than Eregion. At that time also Gil-galad gave Vilya, the Blue Ring, to Elrond, and appointed him to be his vice-regent in Eriador; but the Red Ring he kept, until he gave it to Círdan when he set out from Lindon in the days of the Last Alliance. [...]" So Elrond had possessed Vilya for more than a sesquimillennium before the siege of Barad-dűr. BTW, this passage indicates that I was wrong about Círdan's being an original Ring-bearer. Earlier in the same account it is said that Celebrimbor (or perhaps others of the Mírdain) held all three of the greater elven-rings at the time Sauron made the One; on realizing he'd been 'played' he took them to Lórien, where he gave Nenya to Galadriel; and on her advice he sent the other two to Gil-galad in Lindon. Contradicting the quotation above, it was apparently Tolkien's conception at this point in the writing that Gil-galad passed Narya on to Círdan soon thereafter, but CJRT notes this parenthetically, evidently accepting the version I quoted instead. Still somewhat puzzling is that the last sentence above would seem to imply that Círdan stayed behind to keep the Red Ring safe, but of course we're told elsewhere that he was present at Sauron's disembodiment. Might he have arrived in Mordor some time after the army of the Last Alliance, when the siege was nearly over? -- Odysseus
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From: " Shanahan" <pog...@bluefrog.com> Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Who could see an invisible Ring-wearer? Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 22:43:26 -0700 Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> References: <MPG.email@example.com> <7%iHc.46814$MT5.firstname.lastname@example.org> Xref: g2news1.google.com rec.arts.books.tolkien:8405 In news:7%iHc.46814$MT5....@nwrdny01.gnilink.net, Conrad Dunkerson <cbdun...@verizon.net> opined: > "Stan Brown" <the_sta...@fastmail.fm> wrote in message > news:MPG.email@example.com... > >> The more intriguing question is whether there are any classes of >> persons who can see a mortal who is wearing a Ring, as Tom >> Bombadil could. > > Nazgul. :) Very funny! > Also, when Frodo wore the Ring it often seemed to increase the > danger of Sauron locating and 'seeing' him. > > There is also the speculation over whether Sauron was visible > when he fought the against the Last Alliance or whether > Gil-galad, Cirdan, Elrond, Elendil and/or Isildur could somehow > see or fight him despite the invisibility. Well, how about the quote from Isildur's Scroll: "The Ring misseth, maybe, the heat of Sauron's hand, which was black and yet burned like fire, and so was Gil-Galad destroyed." That seems to imply visibility, while He was wearing the Ring. Ciaran S. -- On the punk generation: "It should be remembered that we had all grown up with Civil Defense drills and dreams of the Bomb at night: we had been promised the end of the world as children, and we weren't getting it." - _England's Dreaming_
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From: o...@netcom.com (O. Sharp) Subject: Re: Tolkien's Magic Date: 1995/08/18 Message-ID: <ohhDDHusL.39K@netcom.com>#1/1 sender: o...@netcom6.netcom.com references: <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> organization: A Rolling Stone Gathers No _Hroa_ newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Lars Christensen (fl...@inet.uni-c.dk) wrote: : Lars-Einar Fryklof (Lars-Eina...@online.idg.se) wrote: : : On August 15, Bill Thompson wrote: : : > Check out Letter No. 131 in the 'Letters of JRRT' (page 152). In this : : > letter JRRT states that the Seven and the Nine _did_ confer invisibility : : > to the wearers, whereas the Three _did not_. : : Which makes me wonder... how come the Nazguls' _clothes_ didn't turn : : invisble, when Bilbo's and Frodo's did? : Well, their clothes _did_ turn invisible. Everything except their : cloaks, that is. Maybe Sauron was an excellent tailor, and made some : special Nazgul cover-up cloaks? Wait, wait, waiiit, wait, wait wait wait waitwaitwait. Hold on. Let me catch up here. :) I think we're talking two different _kinds_ of invisibility here. With Bilbo and Frodo, their invisibility would be caused by the Ring's power to _make_ you invisible - and that power evidently made your clothes invisible as well. With the Ringwraiths, however, it's a whole different thing. The reason _they're_ invisible is not because of Ring-spells any more, but because over the centuries they've _faded_; their bodies are basically gone, and now all that's left of the Ringwraiths are... well, _wraiths_, just as Gandalf said would happen to anyone who wore a Great Ring for too long (_Fellowship_ p. 56 hardback; also see _Sil._ p. 289 hardback: The Nazgul "became for ever invisible save to him that wore the Ruling Ring"). In other words, with the Nazgul it's not so much "invisibility"; it's that there's no body any more to _see_. So the Nazgul no longer need Rings for their flesh (or lack of flesh) to be invisible. Good thing, too, since evidently they no longer even _have_ the Rings; Sauron gathered the Rings to himself (_UT_ p. 345; also implied in _Sil._ p. 302), and so the Nazgul haven't even _got_ the things... and so, I believe, they no longer have access to the "make-me-invisible-and-make-everything-I'm-_wearing_-invisible-too" powers which the Rings had. Thus you can't see a Nazgul, but you _can_ see its black cloak, and its hood, and its crown and mace if it's the Witch-king, and I suppose its _horse_ for that matter... :) From this I suppose one could put forward a theory that the Nazgul wore no underwear, since nobody ever sees it, but I don't think I'll commit myself to a position either way on that. :) ...Just as an aside, has anybody else noticed the similarities between Gandalf's description of becoming a wraith and the passage in _Morgoth's Ring_ describing Elven spirits (_fea_ singular, _fear_ plural) eventually burning out their bodies (_hroa_)? From _M's Ring_, pp.218-9: "As ages passed the dominance of [the Elves'] _fear_ ever increased, 'consuming' their bodies (as has been noted). The end of this process is their 'fading', as Men have called it; for the body becomes at last, as it were, a mere memory held by the _fea_... "[If an Elven body fails,] sooner or later it 'dies'. That is: it becomes painful for the _fea_ to dwell in it, being neither a help to life and will nor a delight to use, so that the _fea_ depart from it... Then the _fea_ is, as it were, houseless, and it becomes invisible to bodily eyes (though clearly perceptible by direct awareness to other _fear_)." ...I suspect that the Ringwraiths' losing their visibility and becoming disgruntled, invisible spirits may be a similar "mechanism" to the Elves' losing their _hroa_ and becoming disgruntled, invisible _fea_... invisible, but still perceptible to (say) other _fea_, or to (say) Frodo wearing the Ring at Weathertop. Anyway, that's just my current issue-confusing speculation. I want to emphasize that I am not a doctor, and do not have any practical experience in the matter of unnaturally prolonging life. :) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- o...@netcom.com ...Maybe we should ask Keith Richards? :)
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From: s.so...@edfac.usyd.edu.au (Stephen Souter) Subject: Re: The Invisibility of the Ringwraiths Date: 1998/09/08 Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org>#1/1 References: <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> Organization: University of Sydney Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien In article <smjames-0609...@ppp-206-170-2-194.sntc01.pacbell.net>, smj...@my-dejanews.com (!**?#!#$) wrote: > > ) sentence caught my attention: "He bent over her like a cloud, and his eyes > > ) glittered." > > In boring reality, eyes do not shine, they only reflect. Not Gollum's, nor > creatures on the elf-path through Myrkwood. But in Tolkien's world, eyes > can generate light. > > Actually I always thought the red flames were where the body should have been. Actually, couldn't that "and his eyes glittered" be interpreted as meaning they glittered by *reflected* light? Mind you, that brings us right back to the question posted by the original poster. But then invisibility in Tolkien's word is peculiar. Consider Sting. When in _The Hobbit_ Bilbo picks up a selection of stones to fling at the Mirkwood spiders ("While he was picking up stones..."), the spiders can't see the ones he's carrying, even though he must have been carrying a fair number when he started throwing them at them. Yet despite this, the spiders can later see Sting when Bilbo brandishes it at them even though they (still) can't see Bilbo himself. ("The spiders saw the sword, though I don't suppose they knew what it was...") There's a similar incident in _Unfinished Tales_. Isildur puts on the Ring to escape the Orcs at the battle of the Gladden Fields. "But the Elendilmir of the West could not be quenched, and suddenly it blazed forth red and wrathful as a burning star." Not until Isildur "drawing a hood over his head, vanished into the night" does the Elendilmir vanish as well. In other words, the Ring by itself could not prevent the Elendilmir from being seen, yet an (invisible) hood drawn over the elvish stone could! Strangely, there is actually a consistency in this. Although the spiders could see Sting when drawn, they could (apparently) *not* see it so long as it was in its (invisible) scabbard! Do we see Sting & the Elendilmir (but not Bilbo's stones) because of the former two's Elvish powers? Well...maybe. But why then can Sam still see Gollum in the Chambers of Fire when the latter attacks Frodo? ("Gollum on the edge of the abyss was fighting like a mad thing with an unseen foe.") If Gollum was grappling with Frodo should not Gollum *himself* have become as invisible as the other things Frodo had (so to speak) clinging (or otherwise attached) to himself or his clothes? An elvish brooch, for instance. (Just to confuse matters further there's also the thought which comes into the mind of (an invisible) Sam in _The Two Towers_ as he goes charging after Gorbag & Shagrat when they & their Orcs come upon Frodo above Cirith Ungol: "They'll see the flame of the sword, as soon as I draw it..." Do we interpret this to mean that Sam thinks the Orcs would see the sword itself or just the light it makes in the presence of their kind? In which case what about some other light source the bearer happened to be carrying, be it the magical Phial of Galadriel or a non-magical lantern?) One cannot help feeling that there is a degree of discrimination here on the part of the Tolkien's rings. The bearer can be holding stones, or be wearing clothing or be bearing a sword in a scabbard, and these will all be invisible. Yet if someone grabs hold of the bearer (as distinct, presumably, from the bearer grabbing hold of them) they do not turn invisible also. More, putting the Ring on a chain round your neck doesn't make you invisible, but putting it on your finger does--so long as that finger stays attached to you! (When Gollum attacks Frodo & bites off his finger, it isn't just Frodo who suddenly becomes visible: "Gollum, dancing like a mad thing, held aloft the ring, a finger still thrust within its circle." One cannot help but wonder what would have happened had the wonders of microsurgery been available in Frodo's day, assuming Sam had been able to retrieve it in time from Gollum & have it preserved in ice! If the surgeons had been able to attach the finger back on with the Ring still on it, would Frodo have at once turned invisible?) Given that the One Ring was itself invisible when its bearer was, it all suggests what might be termed degrees of "invisi-bility" between the classes of rings. That is, between what they will (or can) make invisible and what they will (or can) not: with the Three at one end of the scale and the One Ring and (presumably) the Nine somewhere at the other. The Three are limited to making themselves invisible. Or at least in a sense "invisible"; for Frodo saw the ring on Galadriel's finger whereas Sam did not. That being the case, maybe it's not so strange at all that Merry & Eowyn could see the eyes of the Ringwraith glitter. :) -- Stephen Souter s.so...@edfac.usyd.edu.au http://www.edfac.usyd.edu.au/staff/souters/
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From: atsar...@hotmail.com (A Tsar Is Born) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,humanities.music.composers.wagner,rec.arts.books.tolkien,soc.culture.jewish Subject: Re: Wagner and Tolkien Date: 11 Apr 2002 22:01:49 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Message-ID: <email@example.com> References: <XEVn8.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <IVAo8.firstname.lastname@example.org> <a84fl5$pkhv6$1@ID-121201.news.dfncis.de> <Elrp8.email@example.com> <a8d4nh$qttir$1@ID-121201.news.dfncis.de> <3CAA2015.6387161B@his.com> <Xns91E55C34BB86borregairedelscollon@184.108.40.206> <a8dhtq$rn9on$1@ID-121201.news.dfncis.de> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <AjVr8.252$iB4.email@example.com> Xref: archiver1.google.com alt.fan.tolkien:96901 humanities.music.composers.wagner:3920 rec.arts.books.tolkien:67233 soc.culture.jewish:167932 "?evind L?g" <ojevin...@swipnet.se> wrote in message news:<AjVr8.252$iB4...@nntpserver.swip.net>... > Confronted with the claim that he had been influenced by Wagner's Ring, > Tolkien wrote: "Both rings were round, and there the similarity ends." > > Öjevind I'm sure he wrote that, and he may even have believed it. But it wasn't true. In the source material, the Ring is merely magical in that it attracts gold (like the dwarven rings in Tolkien) and in that it is accursed when stolen from its original owner, the dwarf Andvari, by Loki. Volsunga Saga shows the working out of the curse. (I don't believe the ring exists in Niebelungenlied at all.) It was Wagner's idea to place the ring at the center of his drama, to have it bound up with power, with violation of the natural order, with control of the world, and control of other beings against their will. He kept the curse, but gave it a new meaning. He also gave it a companion magical item, the tarnhelm, which could change the wearer's shape -- and the first shape the first wearer chooses is invisibility. Tolkien conflated these when he first had Bilbo stumble on the Ring in The Hobbit. (He even keeps Andvari/Alberich's curse and riverine habitat for the original -- later revised -- Gollum.) Later, tinkering around for a sequel, he pounced on the Ring as the likeliest story-link. But it had to be more significant than it had seemed in The Hobbit. And, having Wagner's Ring in the back of his mind (he and Lewis had attended performances of it at Covent Garden, and every literate human being in Europe knew the story of the opera back then), he used Wagner's notion of a violation of natural law to create a Ring of Power that would rule the world. He didn't get this idea from Norse Sagas, because it doesn't occur in any of them. It doesn't occur before Wagner, who invented it. Tolkien got it from him, and a great deal else besides. He constructed a very different fable around it -- in part because he was a devout Catholic and Wagner was not a devout Christian of any sort, and in part because Tolkien had the whole of his Elvish mythology ready-made on which to build his plot. He did a fantastic job, and he managed to have his characters destroy the Ring without ending their world. But YES whatever he said, or you say, Tolkien got the idea of the Ring of Power from Wagner. Nowhere else. Parmathule atsar...@hotmail.com
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From: atsar...@hotmail.com (A Tsar Is Born) Newsgroups: alt.fan.tolkien,rec.arts.books.tolkien Subject: Re: Wagner and Tolkien Date: 17 May 2002 23:55:55 -0700 Organization: http://groups.google.com/ Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> References: <XEVn8.email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> <email@example.com> Xref: archiver1.google.com alt.fan.tolkien:104608 rec.arts.books.tolkien:71106 ke...@grinnell.edu (Chris Kern) wrote in message news:<3cc2cd6...@news.newsguy.com>... > On Sun, 14 Apr 2002 18:20:00 -0400, qx1...@bigfoot.com (Stan Brown) > posted the following: > > >It is nonsense, as is quoting _me_ and lodging an objection to what > >someone _else_ said, when I never said that and in fact have said > >the opposite. > > Sorry, that was supposed to be an apology but the actual apology got > dropped. Sorry. > > -Chris Chris has been saying it's nonsense to say that Tolkien got the idea of a Ring that rules the world from Wagner, but neither he nor anyone else has come up with any example of such a thing prior to Wagner. Wagner invented it, and whether Tolkien knew more than he about Norse myths or not, he invented it forty years before Tolkien was born. During Tolkien's lifetime, and one reason the Sagas came into such vogue in his lifetime, Wagner's music-dramas were overwhelming in their influence on culture throughout Europe. And we know Tolkien knew them and attended performances of the Ring. YEARS LATER he came up with the idea of a Ruling Ring. No one else had ever come up with such a thing before Tolkien -- except Wagner. Unless you have some alternate universe for Oxford dons thesis, Wagner is the inventor of the Ruling Ring idea, and Tolkien got it from him. The stories they based on this Ring are, of course, very different -- as different as a music-drama by an egoist and a novel by a conservative Catholic might be expected to be. But that IS the source of Tolkien's idea of the Ruling Ring. Tsar atsar...@hotmail.com
← back to How did the One Ring compare to Wagner’s Ring of the Nibelung?
Newsgroups: rec.arts.books.tolkien Date: Wed, 18 Sep 2013 20:47:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <MPG.firstname.lastname@example.org> References: <MPG.email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <MPG.email@example.com> <firstname.lastname@example.org> <MPG.email@example.com> Message-ID: <firstname.lastname@example.org> Subject: Re: FAQ of the Rings updated From: Jeff Urs <jeff....@gmail.com> Xref: uni-berlin.de rec.arts.books.tolkien:340701 On Tuesday, September 17, 2013 11:12:34 PM UTC-4, Stan Brown wrote: > Thanks for the suggestion. I'm in a bit of a quandary. Both new > windows and popups are deprecated and won't pass validation. Also, > I'd have 25 more files in that folder. What do others think? Regarding the 25 files more, you could put all 26 articles in a single file and create direct links to them using the same sort of anchor tags you use for your individual FAQs. If someone wants to have an article open while they are reading the FAQ that referenced it, they can always manually open it in another tab or window. -- Jeff
The FAQ of the Rings refers to more than 25 articles by various authors in the Usenet newsgroup rec.arts.books.tolkien. That article used to link to the referenced articles in the Google archive, and periodically as Google changed its links I would update the references.
But with every redesign, Google made it progressively harder to find articles or to reference them by Web links, for obscure reasons of its own. Finally in summer 2012 I threw up my hands and stopped trying, but I didn’t actually remove the links because they contained the Message-IDs.
On 15–16 September 2013, I spent several hours retrieving the articles, and appended them to the FAQ in a ZIP file. It was less than handy for readers, but still much, much easier to access than the Google archives.
Jeff Urs suggested placing the referenced articles in one text file, with anchors, so that the FAQ could link directly to each article. I have gladly adopted his suggestion, which I should have thought of myself.
In the quoted articles, I have suppressed most headers. I’ve kept References, In-Reply-To, and Xref because they may be interesting to those who might like to find more of a conversation. And of course the Message-IDs are there, as (theoretically) unique identifiers for articles.